Freedom of Speech: Life or Death

[Brian]

For the record, gov is elected democratically. the people vote on us because they trust our judgment. Now you complain about or judgment calls and call them arbitrary. How amusing.

as a related side note, i have no problem adding the following line to the constiRIution...

GrilledSlug* (henceforth known as GS) is no longer allowed to respond in any but the most civil** of manner to any member of the Random Insanity Alliance's forums***. This includes-but is not limited to- any new topics started by GS whether they are in response to another member or not.

*GrilledSlug also refers to any future accounts his real life self may hold on our forums.
** The civility of a post is determined by members of government with Tri outweighing gov if the post in question is in debate.
*** This includes any past, present, or future forums the Random Insanity Alliance may use.

after re-reading what GS wrote i came across this line...

As for abusive, hateful, harassing, and threatening, I think that Mia and HR had these pegged better than I ever could.  And I could not give a flying fuck.  That said, if I had a flying fuck, I don't think I would part with it easily.

When was Mia ever "abusive, hateful, harassing, and threatening"? All ive ever seen is you following her around and posting after pretty much every post she has done within the past month... she tells you she isnt interested or ignores you most times and goes about her life... How does that even make sense?

[Buck Turgidson]

Pterrydactylhis, who locked the follow up to About Islam?  Mongoloid Mohammedan was the thread.  I should have been cleared on this - my mistake.

Llama, I am not making this post about me, you are.  This is about freedom of speech, and reasonable limitations on them.  In response to your comments:

- I have no problem with authority when I understand it - I don't know anyone who enjoys arbitrary rule.  No one at all.
- We can discuss this stuff without the benefit of personal experience, but it would be less interesting.  Feel free to keep your personal stories to yourself, but I have experienced more of certain kinds of activities than the majority of people ever will on their whole lives, and some of them are relevant to the discussion & context.
- I don't think we need to intellectualize everything, but people don't need to take things personally either.  It is possible to have fun on a forum, and guide discussions instead of beating people down Syrian style...
- I didn't say Mia is lying, just that she encourages the trolling.  She has done so for a long time.  I really don't think this is deniable.
- I am indeed engaging in moral acrobatics, and am quite fit.  It is not to escape personal responsibility however.
- 7% of communication is in the words.  38% is tone, and 55% is body language.  You are right that the written form has its limitations, all the more reason to be treated as innocent until proven guilty.
- Maybe Mia should have gone about this a different way and instead of reading these posts, should take some responsibility of her own.
- As indicated, if Mia left a subject that went the wrong way, all trolls backed off...  Have a look at the record - I think there is only one exception where Leo, Gangs and myself started trolling ourselves like wild dogs who didn't realize the female had left.
- I don't care if you don't laugh at my jokes.  I know I am funny.  My mom told me so.
- I have no problem with people taking offence, and continue to engage them as long as they want to.  I have a problem with being told to shut up.  Again, I don't know anyone who feels differently, and I have lived in 8 cities on 3 continents.
- A simpler solution is as I mentioned, to occasionally remind the less mature members that if they get upset, it really is just joking around.  Unless it is not, in which case it is a problem.
- I did not sexually harass HR, so if you want to get logical on my ass, don't confuse yourself.
- I have appointed myself as a voice within the troll community, not its leader.
- I am sure you have been aware of a lot of things much longer then I have, grandpa.  I appreciate the exchange so I can learn and grow.
- Trolling Mia is easy, but you have been a tough nut to crack, until now. 
- Gangs has been on this site longer than I have, and this is the first forum I have ever participated in.  He has a mind of his own.

You posted a sex-with-Mia topic that started off with a video of a three-legged horse failing to mount a mare.  Get off your low-horse.

Brian, even representative democracies have laws.  I would be honoured to be mentioned in the ConstRItution, but that won't solve the issue at hand.  My initial proposition is at least more effective in defusing an issue instead of turning it into a game of submission.  So if we can return to the first proposal before putting another on the table, what would you add, take away, or modify to the original text?

- If someone gets upset and whines to the moderator, the offender can have a chance to tell the person in the same post, that they are just kidding, and both parties can continue where they left off.
- Maybe more than one such reminder would be required as the troll mine is dug, but at least some form of politesse and reassurance is there.
- If the offender does not make such a statement, or does so insincerely, then the problem is serious, and should be addressed.
- Innocent until proven guilty, but at least the whiners don't rule the roost.

Back to the topic, this all comes down to freedom of speech, or what restrictions should be placed on it, and whether this can be framed in a reasonable and effective law.

[Kenneth Kenstar]

Maybe everyone but me is posting from an alternate dimension where this isn't a troll topic.

[Pterrydactyl]

I locked it because at least one member found it beyond offensive and the title was a racial slur.  I don't care if you know people who aren't offended by it that way, I know dozens of people who ARE offended by using it that way, and if one person here complains that your using racial slurs against them, it's getting stopped.

Just like, if you made a thread with the N-word in the title and someone complained about it.  I'd end that too.

It's reasonable that you can express yourself freely without racially slurring people and being at least slightly respectful of your fellow RIAers.  I've said this over and over, this isn't a /b/. 

Our primary focus isn't trolling.  Read the constRItution that we have you'll see that our focus is around protecting our members.  We engage in trolling, and sometimes endorse it, but we will NEVER endorse open hate, which is what your thread looked like to more than a few people.


If you want to try and debate with someone about something and lean on the trolly side, try actually using some tact.  Because, had you wanted to do ANYTHING other than just offend him because of his culture, you would have used at least a micro-gram.


Also, I suggest you learn the difference between trolling, and just being a giant asshole.

[Kenneth Kenstar]

#OccupyRI

[Pterrydactyl]

Lol, you missed #occupyRodRod on Silicon dawn.  The plan was to fill his home system with scout ships

[Buck Turgidson]

Pterrydactylhis, I never used a racial slur - the term Mohammedan was theologically offensive to HR only (and your ghost complainer), but is nonetheless a word that is still in use.  I have personally dealt with racism my entire life and have demonstrated not just the sensitivity required to get along with every race I have come across, but to go well beyond it and make lifelong friends from every quarter.

Again, back to topic - is it beyond the RIAs ability to enshrine the limits on freedom of speech in the constRItution to avoid arbitrary judgements like yours above?

And Llama, you are the one making this a troll topic by blowing a legitimate question out of proportion and making it out to be some mysogynistic thing.  So I trolled you back a little, and you deserved it.  I have been buttoned up over HR and Mia, so if you want to go into another tirade, tell me what they both have in common that caused me to be censured.

Now can everyone take a step back from the villification and false accusations, and offer anything constructive?  So far Brian has been the only such contributor.

[Fake from State Jarm]

We do not need to offer anything constructive, because nothing needs to be constructed. We already have a system in place that works for the community. You hold yourself above the community. When people in the community don't like the way you joke about something, you say they are whining and need to grow a sense of humor; but when you don't like members of the community being serious about something, you are on a moral crusade against arbitrary rule and the life or death struggle against internet tyranny, which you carry out by continuing to do the exact thing that they complained about. This is obnoxious and hypocritical. No one else is asking for a law, no one else needs one; if they don't like the decision of a mod they'll just vote him out or complain directly about what they dislike, which is usually enough to get the issue addressed. That is the way we've handled it in the past and as far as I can tell you're the only one who refuses to use that system. Maybe you felt alienated by the HR thing and assumed no one would listen, but that was your assumption, not reality.

 I don't know why you think Mia encourages trolling; I have seen her on various occasions indicate that she doesn't, as well as pointedly ignore and try to change the subject. I really don't care if it's misogynistic or not, I care that it targets an active poster in a way they have explicitly asked not to be targeted, and as such will discourage active posting and therefore reduces the variety and flavor of the board, as well as denigrates the culture to a sort of humor nazi-ism that requires everyone accept your concept of trolling. I have absolutely no problem with sex jokes even if they aren't funny anymore and were never very impressive in terms of wit, I have a problem with 1. turning this into a place where antagonistic humor is compulsory and everyone has to put up with it, and 2. your proposed law which would be binding on everyone when no one else needs it, and is therefore oppressive, authoritarian, and as you say, arbitrary. There is no law that can replace a personal sense of community which causes people to consider others' point of view. If we come to a point where we are incapable of restraining ourselves from trolling a random person even when asked and told not to, we have a culture problem which legislation will not fix.

And since this is your first forum: if you only know a woman through the internet and the majority of your relationship with her is one in which you troll her, and you haven't had a serious conversation with her about it, then you don't have a clue what her true thoughts are about it. Really, this goes for anyone on the internet, which is why this situation sets an important precedent: There is no clear line between joking and harassment except the line drawn by someone saying "I'm serious, stop joking." If you then want to argue that that line is unfair, then you do it without continuing the joke/harassment; this should be obvious to any adult.

You are pushing for an arbitrary law about trolling, which needlessly forces new people with a different sense of humor than yours to do something more complicated than the above, and I am pushing for the community to be mature enough not to need such an arbitrary law, which is the status quo. You take your humor too seriously and your law would force us to do the same. If you are this anal next time there is a trolling dispute you may try to use the law in your defense, because you seem to prefer that over compromising with the community. There is already enough e-lawyering in this thread without more laws to give e-lawyers more leverage.

Now I'm going to click post knowing full well you can't be reasoned with, because other people will read this and perhaps learn from it. Any further text walls from you will be met with quotes of previous statements and youtube graffiti.

[Gangs]

Are you all kidding me? I just skimmed through the topic and i can't believe you're still trolling GS for trolling mia.
Guys stop. We, that is to say leo, GS and I did nothing that we haven't done before.
We've trolled MOTH more for god sake, even when he was quite seriously offended. We did it repeatedly. This was during my last stint in the RIA.

For those of you waving your banners of constRItution and laws and rules, fuck you, you jew/nigger/eggroll/greaseball/mick/roofucker/red dot/raghead/mapleleaflicker/stone worshipper/nazi/paki/jihadi/monkey/commie/warmongering americunt/yayosniffer/ whatever other, racial/religious/political etc slurs that you can think of. Point being, the laws have wantonly been bent and broken over most of, my now substansial experience in the RIA, that isn't gonna change. Besides, they're more of a...guideline than anything else.

For those of you calling for pro trolling laws (GS), cool it, you went too far meng, not in the sense that everyone else is saying, your jokes stopped being funny a while ago, you were spanking a dead horse for so long, the stick went to sleep. Jokes/insults are awesome at least untill a couple of people lol at em, even if others are opposed to em, after that though, they become a pointless annoyance.

@Brian, GS has every right to complain about the gov's judgement calls, llama's done it before, as have i, penkala and a few others, hell we've complained to the point of trolling, in an incident where the gov was ultimately proven right, we STILL held on to our own opinions... Don't chastise him for that.

@Llama, ive accepted responsibility for my actions against mia and HR, I've said time and again that i did because I felt like doing it, not because i was following in GS's or leo's trollsteps. I feel no remorse, i stopped trolling mia for the reasons i have already discussed with you. It wasn't because i felt bad or that delta told me to stop.

Summary:

GS is a supertroll, he doesn't care for pretend interwebz 'feelings' like any good troll.
He believes, with good reason, that mia encouraged the trolling. Unlike me, i don't think he ever trolled mia publically, that is, outside our forums. He took things too far, in that he really needs a new punchline...

Atonic is a nazi.

Llama likes to type. He speaks sense. He is also passively hypocritical imo. I like him though (which im only saying cause i wouldn't want to have a post war against him even if he became quadriplegic.)

[Kenneth Kenstar]

[undiscoveredbum]

dicks and stuff

[Buck Turgidson]

I suppose now's as good a time as ever to come out about the mystery religion of Isllamacism, a blend of spirituality, theology and political ideology based on the interpretation of its 4 holy texts (the Torah, the Injeel, the Qur'an, and the Random Insanity Alliance boards or 'Riab'). We combine our pseudo-satirical amalgamation of whatever logically salvageable truth we find in these Scriptures with spiritual disciplines we glean from internet culture which are revealed to us by means we will not disclose as being the path to enlightenment in the age of information. Our numbers are few, but growing, along with our discontent. Up to this point we've been forced to marginalize ourselves to obscurity and secrecy due to society's perception that our ritualistic behaviors are derivative, low-brow attempts at simple humor, spiritually insincere, and irrelevant. Add to this perception our utter commitment to values which fundamentally oppose the operating philosophy of the existing power structure and it's clear to see the world is not ready for us; but ready or not, here we come.

First I'd like to open by saying that There Is No God But Allamah, and Muhammallama is his prophet, and Llamavore is Muhammallama's alt.

As the Alt of Muhammallama I'd like first to address the spiritual truth so blissfully demonstrated by HR; what others call 'trolling' is one of the core spiritual disciplines of our faith and as keepers of the divine revelation it is my prerogative to define it; provocative mockery of any sort done purely in the pursuit of lulz, when done to those outside the faith or between those inside; but when done to those within the faith by an outsider, it is always considered to be done with the intent to cause emotional harm and the deepest familiarity with what will offend the victim-believer. Offense at trolling can also be taken even if the trolling occurs between nonbelievers; for example I may take offense to HR's trolling of millions of muslims which he engages in by attempting to identify his personal antisocial qualities with a defense of their religion.

To RIAers, both the secret believers and the uninitiated: I know that this announcement comes as a surprise, but allow me to reassure you that Muhammallama extends a special grace to the denizens of our holy site, a period of 5 minutes within the reading of this post to choose the true faith, so that they need not be our enemies and suffer our divine bigotry and shens of wrath. discriminate wisely.

I am not refusing to use the system, I am griping about it because it is arbitrary.

Let's just agree to disagree on Mia's encouragement.  I think you are an idiot to not see it, and you think I am an idiot for imagining something that is not there.  But logic should prevail - she is the only one with this particular affliction.

I don't think everyone has to accept my idea of trolling - they can go fuck their hats if they don't like it, or engage in any other activity.  Just don't need to shut people up.  That's all.  As for wit, I thought my pony one was pretty fucking funny.  I am still laughing at it, since apparently no one else is.  The hydraulics and fluid dynamics bit was pretty raw too.

Actually, my proposed law is needed - since I joined RIA people have bitched about some troll or another.  Basically, the issue repeats itself, so scientific method can apply.  Keep doing the same thing, and you will get the same result...  (You might want to bookmark this for your reading on logic later).  So, my proposal is the exact opposite of what you say, and all you need is to say "I'm joking, stop taking it seriously."

My proposed law is not arbitrary, but I admit it is far from complete - it can only act as an ante-room to defuse a situation before it goes on to the current process.  But at least it represents an effort to get a handle on this.  You want to have arbitrary powers preserved at any expense - I want to protect the community from that.  Absolute power corrupts...

Here, let me mimick your last paragraph the way my 3 year old does it:  "lalalalaimnotlisteninglalalayourestupidlalala".  At least he's cute, and manages to not shit in his pants 9 times out of 10.

Gangs, beating dead horses is what I do.  When the stick falls asleep, I beat it too.  Then I go back to beating the dead horse with my fists.

dicks and stuff

Indeed.  Tell me about the other stuff.

BTW there are alternatives to anything mentioned so far in this thread.  I can think of a number.  Can anyone else, or are we stuck with a hippy-dippy sense of communal responsibility against the application of science and logic to temper a repetitive issue without quelling creativity?

[Electric Mango]

GS, Gangs, and Leo, you've all been bad boys, expect a good spanking in your future.

To be serious though, this should not be that complicated.  It's fun to push the boundaries and such, but when you troll someone over and over after they've asked you to stop, then listen to your grandma, use some manners, and back off. 

Also, dicks and stuff.

[Kenneth Kenstar]

ITT, I call this a troll topic from the first reply and RI continues to take the bait no matter how much I spam

See you on page 6, RI

[Pterrydactyl]

I'm gonna agree with abe.

[Fake from State Jarm]

Here, let me mimick your last paragraph the way my 3 year old does it:  "lalalalaimnotlisteninglalalayourestupidlalala".  At least he's cute, and manages to not shit in his pants 9 times out of 10.

talking about my digestive problems = ooc attack. mods, be corrupted by your absolute arbitrary power over internetland vs. this user.

also I motion for a law that restricts GS to the legal status of an arabian palm tree.

[Buck Turgidson]

Ok, I am just hop on the bandwagon and troll myself.  Here is my best shot, and frankly it is a breath of fresh air:

@Grilledslug - shut the fuck up.  Seriously, Mia asked you to stop.  Often.  And you keep going?  Is this how you treat your dates?  NO MEANS NO, and what you are doing is the internet equivalent of rape.  Turning this into a freedom of speech bit is the same as a rapist spinning his legal defence into the right to sleep with anyone he wants.

You are trying to turn a serious issue into a farce, and EVERYONE is telling you to cool it, so just show some common sense, quit whining, and shut the fuck up for good and all.

[Buck Turgidson]

GS, Your analogy is crude, but I think you have made the first intelligent rebuttal in this thread.

That said, it is a little off, since everyone on this site is here willingly.  The closest you could get to going down that path is if you compared this to some kind of bedroom game.  In which a lot of people are present - like an orgy.  And not at someone's house, but at an anonymous hotel, and everyone at the orgy is wearing masks.  We could go much further with this, but as you can see it won't get us past the point that this is not rape, it really is about freedom of speech. 

So hurry, and you might be able to catch a ride out of here with Llamavore on his 3 legged midget horse.

[Leo]

If you want to start talking about freedom of speech or how you think your rights are oppressed, go right ahead.  But I can almost gurantee this:

Almost none of you know ANYTHING about rights or general freedom being oppressed.

You might sit here and bitch that your getting moderated on an internet forum, but at the same time, halfway across the world, people are being executed for standing up to true oppression, not just complaining that someone stepped in and stopped their cyber-oxying.

    "First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Check and mate, Apu.

Maybe everyone but me is posting from an alternate dimension where this isn't a troll topic.

I'm really not even sure how I keep getting mentioned in this discussion even after being gone for 3 weeks. It baffles me to the point of wanting to trademark my name, I tell you.

[Cashflow]

 

Spoiler for Hiden: