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Offline Pterrydactyl

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 04:15:35 am »
Did you ever get to stack detainees?  How about torture them?  From what I have been told by buddies in Iraq and Afganistan that is front line intel work.

Your either trolling, or your buddy from Iraq is an idiot.

Anyone who actually did anything besides believe the spoon-fed drool that Fox was shoveling would know that it was Army Reserve Military police from maryland that were behind the torture and detainee abuse.

They were not active duty (what I was), basically, many Reservist MPs are pretty much rejected police officers that couldn't get jobs in corrections.   So, they do their regular job during the week and one weekend a month they get to pretend their are real police.  IMHO, most reservists have no business deploying overseas.

And to answer your question: No, I did not torture any detainees or force any sort of bodily harm or abuse onto them at all.

See, people don't understand, torture is fucking useless, except for enjoyment of the psycho doing the torturing.  The information is almost never reliable, and when it is reliable, it's easily obtainable without torturing.  I mean, if I'm breaking your fingers or hitting you, your going to tell me what I want to hear, not what I need to know.  Not to mention, it makes it harder for me to form a connection or bond with you later, which is very important for long-term interrogation, You need to be able to trust me with whatever secret you have that I want.

I mean, Can you extract information with torture?  Yes.  Is it reliable?   Generally no.

Torture is a tool for amateurs, or to be thrown in movies to make it look good.  It's no use to someone who actually needs real information.
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Offline Buck Turgidson

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 09:26:10 am »
Well said.  I don't believe Hollywood, but I sure as hell don't believe the press over a vet telling me first-hand stories, either.  The press was made to minimise the stories and make it seem like it was a few people who got out of hand, but bear in mind this happened in both US and British detainment facilities.

One of my buddies is a twice-decorated USMC from the first Gulf War.  He went to Iraq regularly during the second, as a private citizen for commercial purposes in connection to the military.  He brought back some pretty gruesome stories of what was going on (with photos) - he described it as frontline intel gathering.  I worked directly with him when I was based in the ME during the Afgan & Iraq wars, and heard a lot of other stories from military personnel from the US, Canadian, and UK forces.  Also from 2 Iraqi colleagues who had family detained by US forces - their comment was that the US beatings were gentler than the Iraqi ones...  So, all of my information is second hand, but I worked with these people for between 3 and 7 years and vouch for them.  Feel free to call it an urban legend.

I am not trolling - it was a simple question, and I don't pass any value judgement on torture.  In war you do what you have to to get the job done quickly and establish a better peace.  No one was innocent in Iraq - they let an asshole like Saddam stand for 30 years without sticking their necks out for their own freedom.

Offline Leo

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 01:31:33 pm »
So...I'm guessing that you never got to go to the School of the Americas, then?
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Offline Pterrydactyl

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 02:09:21 pm »
Grilled, prior to 2004 when the intelligence corps was restructured and rebuilt from the ground up is what we call "old intel". Those were the people trained to interrogate enemy soldiers.  We were trained to interrogate soldiers and civilians and the different methods that have proven useful.
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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 05:09:53 pm »
The old methods are the best methods.  And by the way these stories kept coming through long after 2004.  Torture will always be around, and I can only hope that we apply the same science to the task as we do to other disciplines - otherwise it is just, as you said, for the amusement of the captor.  If it was as unreliable as you say, people would have given up the practice a long time ago - it has its uses, and a nation should apply all of its resources to getting the job done, whether it offends their own sensibilities or not.  To withhold yourself from any method at your disposal, because it is unpopular back home, means prolonging a conflict and leaving the people whose country you occupy in harm's way longer than they need to be.  Good thing I am not doing that job - I would be all sweet like you say to get the information, then every so often torture the hell out of one of my informants to calibrate my information and methods.  Preferably to the death so he could not rat me out.

On the subject I read an interesting Harvard Business Review article on the subject - basically negotiation methods used in Iraq, and how to apply it to business.  It seemed practical if I also had the option to shoot my customers, otherwise it was a little academic - it all comes down to establishing your own walk away point, and knowing the other guy's...


Offline Pterrydactyl

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 06:35:18 pm »
torturing informants would accomplish nothing except losing them as informants, and the information they are giving is usually much more valuable.  Informants, are almost always people who are giving you the information at their own risk (though, usually for monetary reward).  If you don't torture them and just get their information and pay based on reliability, it's much better in the long-run.  Then, if he starts giving you inaccurate info, you stop paying him and maybe if it gets really bad, you let slip what he's doing to a detainee just before release.

Yes, torture will always be around, but it's just an unreliable way to get any information.   Not to mention, against the Geneva convention.  Even if we wanted to use torture for information, we legally can't.
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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 08:43:47 am »
Since when did the Geneva Convention stop people (esp many US Army guys, as shown in the Abu Ghraib pics)?

Offline Pterrydactyl

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 09:33:40 am »
Again HR as I said before, those were army reserve MPs.  Reserve are pretty much the stupid rednecks of the army, and the reserve MPs are usually people who couldn't make it as police or corrections officers.  Plese don't take the actions of a small group of these failfags as standard for the entire army.   That would be like me saying because 1 teenager shot up a school, I should expect all of them too.
Every single person on earth is different.  Just because some stupid Fucks do that, doesnt mean that all of us will.
In fact, what's closer to the truth is that for every stupid Fuck like the ones in those pics, there are over a hundred who hand out supplies to schoolchildren.  But, what sort of bothers me, is that everyone remembers abu gharib, but noone remembers how we brought computers to Iraqi schools when most of schoolchildren who had never even seen one before.
It pissed me off that the pictures that cunt took will be remembered, but the pictures of us giving kids soccer balls or the "teddy bear bomber"(a soldier whose parents owned a bear factory.  He would tie parachutes to them and launch them to playgrounds out the side od his helicopter) will be forgotten.  And why?  Because most people believe the bullshit that most of the media spoonfeeds them.

People claim freedom of the press, but I think journalists should be licensed and forced to have integrity.  I could go on about how soany journalists lack integrity and give examples, but I'm typing this on my phone and I'm tires of autocorrect fucking with the words.
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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 09:35:11 am »
Also, by many I assume you mean less than 10 out of the hundreds of thousand that didn't.
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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 09:38:43 am »
Journalists aren't all wrong because one guy reported something that doesn't jive with your personal experience, either.

I am willing to bet anything that there is a stack of prisoners somewhere right now getting a car battery current run through their nipples.  All that Abu Ghuraib did was make the US army careful about cameras when conducting torture.  Sorry if it is cynical, but at least it's not naive.

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2011, 09:40:57 am »
Also, by many I assume you mean less than 10 out of the hundreds of thousand that didn't.

There weren't even 10 hijackers involved on 9-11, and our countries went to war with the nations of millions of inhabitants over it, killing more then 100,000.  Not that I was against it.

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2011, 10:31:03 am »
GS, why are you such an arsehole? Interesting that you think the actions of a few justify generalisation and revenge killings. Can you blame the extremists on the other side if they think like you?

Pterrydactyl,  you are right that evil is remembered more than good. But again, some of those people whom you gave candies and computers may not be grateful because a US bomb killed their dads or know people tortured in Abu Ghraib.
I am glad in the end Obama pulled out from Iraq. Best US president ever, after Bill Clinton and Woodrow Wilson :P

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2011, 12:12:42 pm »
While I do think that it was time for us to pull out of Iraq, I do think that we needed to go in, just not for as long as we were there.

Heres the thing, Saddam needed to be removed from power.  Bush SR. should have done in 20 years ago during the first gulf war.  Saddam gassed tens of thousands of his kurds and committed many other atrocities. And, we knew that he had WMDs, we just didn't know where.  I'm still positive that he had them buried in the desert somewhere.  I mean, when I was overseas, we took picture of people sitting in the SCUDs where the canisters of various types of gas had been removed .

Now, while I support us going in and taking him out, I think we should have gone a different route with out "occupation".  Once we had removed him and established an interim government, we should have tried to get a democracy setup as quickly as possible, then turned over control to them much sooner.  I mean, I was there still close enough to the beginning where most of the people fighting us were Saddam Loyalists, Ba'ath party members, and a few people who were generally displeased with everything.  But, as I was leaving in Jan 2006 (after he had been executed and democracy had been established), the people fighting began to turn from loyalists to people who were upset with the US, people who were being paid by Iranians (I don't even remember how many Iranians we caught smuggling weapons), and finally, Al Queda in Iraq.  Now, when I was there in early 2005, al Queda in Iraq was small, but they grew quickly as they smuggled people in from neighboring countries.  In fact, near the end of 2005, maybe only about 10% of the people we were fighting were Iraqis.

Now, I do think that Iraq went on too long, Had we began to pull out in 2007 and left a small force under Iraqi government control (to assist the Iraqi Military that was still re-establishing at that time), I think it would not have gotten as bad as it was at some points.  The problem, was that intelligence would get "skewed" on the way up to the top.  Imagine, a giant game of telephone. 
Here is exactly how our intelligence reporting worked:
Our Squadron (we called it Squadron, cause we were cav, but it is the same setup as a Battalion), would send a report to our Brigade.  The report would be like, 5 pages.  Now, there were 6 other Battalions that would dot he same thing.  They'd then take the 30 pages, and filter it down to about 8 pages with the highlights.  Next, those 8 pages would be sent to division.  Division would receive reports from 4 brigades.  Then would take that and filter it down again pulling out the highlights.  They would send this to MNF-I command.  Now, they would get reports from usually 5 divisions and shrink it again.  It would get sent to General Shoomaker, and he would then simplify it to the most important information and that was what Bush would get.  This happened every day, so you can imagine how much information was lost or not sent further once it reached where it was necessary the most.  In fact, most of what Bush got, was reports of casualities, successful combat operations, and critical information from detainees.

So, basically, our of the hundreds of pages of intelligence reported, only the most critical information was passed on, and that was after it was rewarded half a dozen times.  Personally, I had 2 reports that I wrote go all the way to Bush, and when they came back to me each time they were nothing like what I originally wrote.  They had taken a page or so of information and shrunk it down to 2 or 3 sentences.  For example, the one report I wrote was about how we had secured airport road so that noone had died on it for 6 months.  It was about a page and a half and was simplified down to:  "6-8 Cav has secured Airport Road, no enemy action for 6 months".  Which was not completely true.  We had plenty of enemy action, but we had thwarted all of it.  However, just the fact that we were able to secure airport road (before we took control, it was the most dangerous road in the entire world), got us a presidential unit citation.

At least now, we can concentrate on Afghanistan, which needs much more help than Iraq does.


Also, I will forever hold a grudge against Obama for cutting NASA funding.  But I did like Clinton (who, some of you might not be old enough to remember, played Saxophone on Leno while he was in office, A first).  Also, Gore wasn't bad for Clinton's VP (I mean, he was on Futurama as himself while he was in Office, another first).
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Leo
I think you are the most annoying poster on this site, honestly.
You are like two llamavores with twice as many animals fucking.
Your posts make me reconsider how long I've been here.
I honestly wonder if you are actually Chris Tucker.

Offline Buck Turgidson

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2011, 12:58:30 pm »
HR - I don't believe in revenge killings.  You're the arse for trying to apply morality to war.

Saddam needed to be taken out because he was a menace who attacked all of his neighbours.  People in Bahrain still remember the scud that came down just off shore, and I bet Israelis don't easily forget the rain of scud terror he sent them.  He attacked Iran, and 1 million were killed.  Border skirmishes and incursions with Turkey, and dogfights with Saudi Arabia.  And I haven't even mentioned what he did to his own people - I had a colleague whose brother was shot and killed by one of his Immortals for stepping on the lawn of a presidential palace.  His own people didn't have the balls to correct the situation themselves, and let him prosper - they got caught in the crossfire due to their own inaction and selsea kittenness.

As for Afganistan, their government was also a menace to all, and was not in control of their own territory - to the point that Bin Laden was able to train, prepare, and launch an attack from their soil that killed thousands, all the way across the world.  They beat and killed their own in a twisted perversion of faith.  I don't know what is worse, supporting an act of war from your own territory, or claiming not to know about it.  It is the same reason that Lebanon is a mess - until the Lebanese government can exercise their sovereignty, they are responsible for Hezbollah's actions - unless they cast the south off and admit defeat to their Palestinian invaders.

Atonichis, you are obviously a very sensible guy who has seen worse than I have, but your argument about the phone game only supports my point that much can go on and not be reported.

Obama is good because he is trying to engage his people, but am pissed at him about NASA too.  NASA programs are the guiding light of science in the world today.  As for cancelling the space shuttle, though, have you seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37

Think for a minute just what such a vehicle means...

My favourite US president was George Bush Sr., followed by Nixon, then Ronald Reagan.  I guess that would make me a republican.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 01:01:28 pm by GrilledSlug »

Offline Pterrydactyl

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2011, 01:27:58 pm »
It wasn't exactly the shuttle I was bothered about, it was the replacement for the shuttle, and the fact that he pulled money away from it.

NASA and our space advances were the one thing that noone could really dispute or talk bad about.  I mean, even a country that hates us like, like france, can't deny our contributions to the world from our space technology, and for him to just cut funding is unforgivable.  It was one of the few things our government was still doing right, and one of our biggest hopes for the future.

And the X-37 is under DARPA now, which means it will either become weaponized, turned into spy equipment, or the project will be classified and locked up forever.  But, hopefully DARPA won't turn it into a space-based version of Metal Gear.
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Leo
I think you are the most annoying poster on this site, honestly.
You are like two llamavores with twice as many animals fucking.
Your posts make me reconsider how long I've been here.
I honestly wonder if you are actually Chris Tucker.

Offline Buck Turgidson

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2011, 03:19:27 pm »
It's a drone in space.  That can land.  Presumably with a payload.  The only reason to build such a thing is to be able to bring something back - there are easier and cheaper ways to get something into space and leave it there.

What could you want to bring back?  The only things I can think of are temporarily deployed nukes stationed on the ultimate high ground, or other nations' satellites (ie if a nation denied having something in space, it could be taken and noone could publicly object...)

Offline Holy Ruler

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2011, 03:45:20 pm »
GS, just go watch Star Trek already.

Offline Leo

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2011, 04:29:11 pm »
What could you want to bring back?
People?
looking for new sig
Spoiler for Hiden:
Fuck y'all.

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Offline Snowbound Milk

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2011, 04:40:47 pm »
Wait, no-one can hear me in this vacuum? D:
 
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Offline Buck Turgidson

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Re: Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 02:04:57 am »
GS, just go watch Star Trek already.

Dont you have a Dear Abby column to ghost-write?

 


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