Qualified to manage you but not old enough to drink

[Buck Turgidson]

Calling a Muslim Mohammedan is like calling a Christian "Cross Worshiper" - unless you personally don't mind. It also implies that Islam is a religion founded by the Prophet Mohammed, when in reality what we believe is that Islam is a continuous religion, and that the Prophet was the last messenger with the last book. We also believe in Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc.
Also, GS, I wouldn't know how expensive Jane's is because I have a Gratis subscription to a couple of its publications   (WIT and Sentinel)

That's about right but not quite - the comparison I would make is not 'cross worshipper', but 'papist'.  I am raised Catholic, but am not catholic in any way because I don't feel any closer to God when I am in a church, and don't give a hoot for the pope.  It's an apt comparison because the Pope is supposed to be God's representative on earth, and most of them end up as saints to be worshipped.  I can't get past the contrast of Jesus' words of peace, and its practical implementation by his followers, especially following the Nicean Creed (in I think 330-340AD, forced by Constantine to adopt Christianity as the Roman empire's official religion and stave of Aphthartodocetism and other movement disputing the nature of Christ as man or god or both).  The Protestant-Catholic wars for 250 years are just inexcusable, and frankly, bad-mannered.  In my books, Christ was a man committed to the end to his beliefs, who lived by example and whose apostles spruced up the story.

By the same token, I would distinguish Muslims from Mohammedans in that a Muslim holds Allah above all in his heart, and a Mohammedan holds his religion (as in the earthly organisation of people, structures, politics, and economic interests) at the centre of his beliefs.  A Muslim submits to Allah, and a Mohammedan is obsessed with emulating Mohammed, who as a person on earth was a conqueror who spilt a lot of blood to establish a religion whose name is supposed to be synonymous with peace.  I have never had any trouble finding common ground with Muslims, but a great deal in getting along with Mohammedans.  A Mohammedan uses the cover of the Koran to cover a book of his own writing - Osama Bin Laden was a Mohammedan, his actions quite contrary to the faith he said he held.  The Druze of Lebanon are another (though different) example of Mohammedans, in that their core beliefs are actually in direct contradiction with Islam, but they call themselves Muslim by treaty.

I have met a lot of true Muslims, and found that one of the best ways to identify them is that when I ask what their denomination is, they don't say Shiite or Sunni, but re-affirm Muslim - they are inevitably good people, with a strong moral center, very difficult to provoke, and of inexhaustible patience.  I have a great deal of respect for that, and hold Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Bhuddists to the same standard.  It is amazing that no matter what the religion is, those that 'get it' inevitably stand on common ground with their peers of other religions, and are outnumbered by idiots to call their own.

[Holy Ruler]

So, by your definition, bad christians are papists and bad muslims are Mohammedans?
Just so you know, no Muslim will ever appreciate your distinction between them and the Prophet, whom we all hold dearly.

Also, I will not lecture you in your religion, so don't lecture me in mine. And, don't tell me what to call my religion.
You can be an asshole all you want, but to personally attack me and my whole Nation from behind a computer screen is just way beyond the line.

[Buck Turgidson]

It's not like I am drawing cartoons of Mohammed you know.  I didn't say Mohammedans are bad, simply the Machiavellian, earthly, cynical manifestation of the faith.

Are you saying that everyone who calls themselves Muslim is so?  Everyone who owns a copy of the Koran and prays 5 times a day is beyond reproach?  Is a bruise on the forehead for the man or for others to see?  Is a Muslim who drinks or eats pork neccessarily bad?

The other thing I learned in living in the Middle East is how unbelievably easy it is to give offence on any subject (and BTW I rarely discussed religion there).  A seriously touchy bunch.  Yet the people I call true Muslims seem to never take offence - my thought on this is that this is because their theology and the daily practice are aligned, so they are not confused or contradicted.

Frankly I don't care if I am giving you offence - it is much easier to hide behind defensive calls of having been offended than to engage in a meaningful, though small scale, dialogue that can only create more understanding in the world.  That is what an anonymous online forum is for.

And not all Muslims hold the Prophet dearly - the Druze curse him privately as a conquered people, and my grandfather was Muslim and converted to Christianity - I guess that makes me Haram and you can get back on your high horse and ride off instead of taking the opportunity to clarify where I am wrong. 

[Holy Ruler]

You seem to talk for me, so it would not even make a difference if I replied to you or not. You seem to be reading whatever you like into this. I have no obligation to "clarify" anything for you.
I don't care if your grandfather was a Muslim and he later became a pussy worshiper for all I care. But I will not come to you and tell you that this is the way your grandpa should have worshiped pussy, or that he wasn't a true pussy worshiper, and go ahead and lecture you on who the fuck a "true" pussy worshiper is.
What I was simply saying was that you can't tell me who is a true Muslim and who isn't. It is a discussion for Muslims. Perhaps if your grandpa hadn't left Islam...
And, you seem to be contradicting yourself here. Make up your mind on the Druze: are they non-Muslims who have a treaty with the Muslims or are they Muslims who "hate" the prophet, as you claim? Weren't you just telling us that Druze were "Mohammedans" - the people who are "the bad Muslims".
Also, fuck you

[Buck Turgidson]

I am not talking for you, just sharing my views. 

As for the Druze, I think they belive in reincarnation among other things.  They took the name of Islam after being conquered by either the Arabs or the Turks, but I met a few in my journeys and they told me they stand apart from the Muslim peoples of Lebanon, as evidenced in the conduct of the civil war there.  So for that reason I would call them Mohammedans, ie. operating within the world of secular Islam but disconnected from the faith.

If you can muster counters to my comments I'll listen and probably debate some more. And I can share some commenrs on true pussy worship too - you're in luck because fat chicks need loving too.

[Holy Ruler]

You have already made up your mind; I don't think anything I say can make you see things as I do.
You are free to believe what you want, and I am free to believe what I want.
Also, whatever way you worship pussy is wrong. Mia does it better. And, apologies to her for GS's hijacking of her thread.

[Croix]

*reads first post*

K.

*reads last post*

rite...

[Mia]

I don't worship pussy. I stopped posting on RIA for this exact reason. I only post on IRON's embassy right now and rarely visit. I am sick of people believing that I actually want this attention. You all have your head stuck up your asses if you honestly believe every girl wants to be hit on or slobbered over. Maybe all we want is to be just treated like human beings and our gender doesn't matter. Yet people's behavior online is "female, must drool!"

Instead of blaming females for this or claiming it is them, maybe look at yourselves for once.

/rant over with

[Leo]

I don't worship pussy. I stopped posting on RIA for this exact reason. I only post on IRON's embassy right now and rarely visit. I am sick of people believing that I actually want this attention. You all have your head stuck up your asses if you honestly believe every girl wants to be hit on or slobbered over. Maybe all we want is to be just treated like human beings and our gender doesn't matter. Yet people's behavior online is "female, must drool!"

Instead of blaming females for this or claiming it is them, maybe look at yourselves for once.

/rant over with

So....




you haven't made my sammich yet, I presume?

[Fake from State Jarm]

You can be an asshole all you want, but to personally attack me and my whole Nation from behind a computer screen is just way beyond the line.

where did he do this? what country are you from?

You seem to talk for me, so it would not even make a difference if I replied to you or not. You seem to be reading whatever you like into this. I have no obligation to "clarify" anything for you.

GS is a troll and I get how making judgements about who is a 'true' muslim is offensive, but it seems he has a point when he says middle easterners are too easily offended. even if you can't change his mind, others could learn a lot more about your religion if you defended it patiently.

Instead of blaming females for this or claiming it is them, maybe look at yourselves for once.

/rant over with

So....

you haven't made my sammich yet, I presume?

really man, you should give it a rest. no one trolls anyone else this much and regardless of the motivations it clearly has something to do with her being a woman. ergo you are treating her differently based on her gender; ergo whether it is positive or negative attention it will eventually be considered insincere and obnoxious.

[Holy Ruler]

Why can't everyone be so cool like llamavore? I don't think GS really wants to see Islam the way Muslims do; he has his own false conclusions that he is trying to put it down my throat.

Also, sorry Mia. Now go back to your embassy.

[Leo]

really man, you should give it a rest. no one trolls anyone else this much and regardless of the motivations it clearly has something to do with her being a woman. ergo you are treating her differently based on her gender; ergo whether it is positive or negative attention it will eventually be considered insincere and obnoxious.

Of course the trolling has something to do with her being a woman, in much the same way that my trolling of you has something to do with animal-fucking and that my trolling of Delta has to do with my hate of pink frosted cupcakes.

[Snowbound Milk]

*reads first post*

K.

*reads last post*

rite...

*reads new last post*

So typical RIA. So typical.

[Croix]

*reads first post*

K.

*reads last post*

rite...

*reads new last post*

So typical RIA. So typical.

[Brian]

im cunfuzzled. how is this thread...
A) 6 pages long.
and B) about religion...

it started out with mia making an announcement about how she is under 21 but old enough to have a collage degree....

[Buck Turgidson]

Why can't everyone be so cool like llamavore? I don't think GS really wants to see Islam the way Muslims do; he has his own false conclusions that he is trying to put it down my throat.

Saying I am wrong without explaining yourself just leaves the impression that you know there is at least some truth in my comments, and you don't want to clarify what's wrong because it will highlight what's right.

I do see the Islam the way Muslims do - some of my very best friends since childhood are Muslim, and though I am not Muslim, we agree on a few fundamentals:

- one God (Allah, the Universe, whatever you want to call him or her, if we agree there is only one then we are obviously talking about the same thing).  Even a pure secularist like myself must conclude that there is one origin for everthing that willed itself into exostence, else you are not logical
- heaven and hell exist just as much on earth as they do in whatever afterlife you believe in
- Osama bin Laden was a murderer, responsible for many more deaths than 911
- Islam, like Christianity, owes its success in practice to its inconsistencies in principle
- and we can chalk those inconsistencies up to not understanding the mind of God
- oh and a recent addendum - God is fickle and needs to take a communication skills class.  First it's "the Jews are my peeps", then he delegates to his son who apparently didn't get His message across right and was too much of a hippie, so he he send Mo with the latest edition "forget all the peace stuff, kill anyone who doesn't agree that this latest memo supercedes everything else I said.  And freak out at cartoons of Mo."

As for the rest, we don't get hung up on the details.  I would agree that my opinions are formed, but not set in stone, so if you can reasonably elucidate, I will listen.  Let's see if you can muster more than a female body part.

[Holy Ruler]

If you are serious about this I can start a new thread. But if you want to just Troll a religion of billions of people, I don't have time for that (and it says a lot about you as a person to be doing that).

So, are you serious, and will you reply like a civilised person?

[Croix]

HR, just make a new thread, if it gets super trolly or whatever, let one of the admin's know and we can lock/purge it

[Snowbound Milk]

Please do.

Also. He's not really trolling a religion. And this isn't a "The first rule of Islam is you don't talk about Islam" moment.

[Buck Turgidson]

Please do.

Also. He's not really trolling a religion. And this isn't a "The first rule of Islam is you don't talk about Islam" moment.

Correct - I am glad someone understands that this sub-discussion is about defining the difference between Mohammedan and Muslim.  And just because someone gets all up in arms about a topic, it doesn't automatically make the one holding their goat a troll.

I will participate in a new thread if all the posts related to this topic so far are copied into it - otherwise it will just be a confusing re-start...  Also, since I don't think this phenomenon is unique to Islam, maybe this should just be the starting point in a discussion about the difference between religion and true faith regardless of creed.  Finally, no holds barred, but no cartoons.  Deal?